Episode 15 - Barriers and Challenges

Brick Walls and Mountain Climbs: Navigating Barriers vs. Challenges

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Jonathan Wade and Joel Malin (humorously revisiting his childhood moniker "Uncle Jones") break down the hidden friction points that stall personal growth, professional transitions, and entrepreneurial ventures. Rather than conducting a typical "wins and losses" segment, the hosts reframe the conversation around Barriers and Challenges. Through relatable life examples, business case studies, and therapeutic insights, Joel and Jonathan provide an actionable roadmap for recognizing when to accept an immovable wall, when to alter your own mindset, and why strategic rest is an underutilized weapon for success.

🧠 Core Themes & Key Takeaways

1. Defining the Friction: Barriers vs. Challenges

To create an actionable path forward, Joel emphasizes the critical psychological difference between external walls and internal hurdles:

• Barriers (The Immovable Wall): An external, fixed, or unyielding reality that completely stops progress in a specific direction. Barriers are entirely out of an individual's control. Attempting to apply brute force against a barrier yields diminishing returns.
• Challenges (The Mountain Climb): A complex obstacle or difficult circumstance that demands personal growth, effort, or a shift in skill to overcome. Overcoming a challenge requires changing oneself and your own routine to build endurance and capacity.
• The Litmus Test: Joel shares a simple, practical analogy for detecting hidden barriers: What is the thing you are actively doing instead of the thing you should be doing? He notes how his own goal of getting to the gym early was continually derailed by a seemingly harmless barrier—lingering on the couch for a comfortable, third cup of coffee.

2. Radical Acceptance and Strategic Pivots

When facing a true structural barrier, successful individuals must practice radical acceptance rather than falling into a passive "victim mentality".

• Therapy and Insurance Regulations: Joel opens up about his baseline barrier as a therapist: he refuses to participate in traditional insurance models because insurance companies strip clinical control away from providers and treat patients like paychecks. Realizing he could never change the massive insurance system, Joel executed a strategic pivot to exclusively seek out salaried care settings.
• The Direct Primary Care (DPC) Battle: In Dr. Wade’s realm of DPC (Orchard Health), the fact that major employers exclude DPC from baseline benefit packages is a market barrier. The challenge, however, lies in proactively educating employers and patients about the long-term value of accessible, high-quality care to earn their trust.
• Redefining Contentment: True contentment is not simply having enough; it is choosing to believe that what you currently have is enough. Jonathan shares his mindset shift following the painful closure of his Valdosta office venture. Instead of wallowing in a 6-week holding pattern of self-pity and letting his primary practice stagnate, he focused on deep appreciation for the thriving patient panel he already had, transforming a perceived failure into a vital learning opportunity.

3. The Deconstructed Pathway and the Weapon of Rest

• The "Just for Today" Mentality: When a long-term goal feels so massive that it transforms into a psychological barrier, it must be deconstructed. Borrowing a page from his distance-running background and the foundational principles of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), Joel highlights the power of focusing entirely on the next micro-milestone or simply choosing the right path "just for today".
• Rest as a Direct KPI: Both hosts vehemently challenge the "go, go, go" hustle culture. Jonathan cites concepts from the book 10X Is Easier Than 2X, noting that top-tier entrepreneurs intentionally build massive blocks of rest into their annual schedules to fully recuperate.
• The Danger of "Use it or Lose it" Momentum: Joel points out a common pitfall he witnesses among the Navy sailors he treats—accumulating annual leave but refusing to use it out of fear of losing professional momentum. Operating in a constant state of exhaustion means you cannot offer your family or your business the best version of yourself. If your system relies on you functioning at 100% human capacity every single day without rest, it is mathematically structured for failure.

📖 Story Time with Uncle Jones: The Origins of Instagram

To close out the episode, Joel introduces a new segment mapping these concepts to the business world:

• The Original App (Bourbon): Founders Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger initially launched a highly complex social app called Bourbon, which focused primarily on location check-ins.
• Hitting the Wall: The app gained zero mainstream traction. The market presented a clear barrier: users simply did not want another clunky check-in system.
• The 90-Degree Pivot: Instead of bashing their heads against the wall to force adoption, the founders looked at user behavior data. They noticed users were completely ignoring the check-in data but were utterly obsessed with a minor, secondary feature: taking, filtering, and sharing photos. By stripping away the clunky features and leaning directly into the photo feature, Instagram was born.

🛑 Podcast Mindset Anchor"A barrier is not something that you can buckle down with good old American elbow grease and work ethic and make it change... Anything about my choice is something I control. Anything not pertaining to my choice is out of my control." — Joel Malin

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hey everybody, it's Dr. Jonathan Wade here on the next episode of the Long Burn Podcast. We're glad to have you back. As always, I've got my best bud here, Joel Mallon. My name is Joel. Hello. Hi, Joel. Anyway, so today we're doing something a little different. We're not going to necessarily do the wins and losses. We're going to kind of jump right into this. And Joel said before we got on here, we're not doing wins and losses. We're doing barriers and challenges. And I think this really works well with kind of what we've talked about. We talked about that fear of success. We've talked about that identity of the person that can make the journey, that can overcome that fear. And so now I think it's nice to kind of uh parlay into maybe some of these barriers and challenges that we meet along the way in this life journey, this entrepreneurial journey, however you want to look at it. So I think I think this is a really nice kind of third episode in what we thought was just a two-parter that kind of works together for our audience. What do you think, Joel?

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Well, I think I think the goal is to um, you know, we did the two parts on the fear of success and everything else. And so the question is kind of okay, well, what does that look like and what do I do about it? And I always like having an actionable point because that's great if somebody just spouts information at you, but if they don't give you an application for that, it's really not that beneficial. You're like, okay, I know this now, now what? You know, there's got to be an answer to the now what. Um, so so you know, we've talked about, you know, you get to that 90% done point, you get to that hump of of what's the next thing. And and the question a lot of times, you know, what's standing in the way? Um, I've got a really I consider it a dumb analogy of like what's a what a barrier could be is um a barrier to me is what is the thing that you're doing instead of the thing you should be doing. Like that could literally be anything that has become a barrier, you know, and it could be behavioral, it could be circumstantial, it could be environmental, whatever. And so, like for me, like it was getting to the gym in the morning. Like I would want to get to the gym by a certain time so that I could have enough time to get a workout in before I go to work. And I kept noticing, I was like, man, I kept talking myself out of it. I was like, oh man, it's too late. I'm not gonna get a good workout in the gym. So I just didn't go. And then next thing you know, one day turns into a week and turns into two weeks, and you're just like, whoa, like how did we get here? You know, and so then you look at it and say, What are you doing instead of what you should be doing, what you want to be doing? And it was something as simple as having a third cup of coffee that I knew that I had enough time that I could drink two cups of coffee, get my gym bag, go to work, right? And because I was being uh very comfortable on the couch, I won't say lazy, I'm being comfortable on the couch. Um, I'll tell you what, like quiet mornings where that space is yours, that's a premium. You know, that's some premium real estate in the time market. And uh so I mean I sitting on the couch and just kind of getting your mind centered for the day, petting the cat, drinking some fresh coffee, that's a wonderful time. And but I realized that I was using it too much to the point that I wasn't accomplishing what I wanted to get done that day. And so I had to cut out that third cup of coffee and make myself only drink two so I could leave at a certain time. And hopefully it didn't sound too dumb of an analogy, but I think people can relate. Like, let's say that you're trying to get somewhere on time, but you decide that you're gonna throw in a load of laundry before you leave, and now you're late. Like you've just created a barrier based on a goal, a last second goal that you made that didn't even have to happen right then.

unknown 3:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

And so anything can be a potential barrier. And so um, I think definitions are important. And so barrier is kind of like an external, fixed or unyielding reality that stops progress in a specific direction. And like I said, it could be just about anything versus a challenge, it could be something very difficult, complex, uh, or an obstacle, something that demands growth effort or skill to overcome. So it's recognizing the barrier is not going to change, and me changing isn't gonna change the barrier. A challenge is I need to change in order to overcome this hurdle. Um, because you know, I need to change uh my my routine or my schedule in order to get that. So uh you could say that the coffee thing, maybe it was a barrier or as a challenge, and and they're very related, you know, that they can be very similar in the way that they're perceived. Um, but basically a barrier is something that's out of your control. You know, like if you don't have um, let's say you want to buy a house and it's $500,000 and you don't have $500,000, at that moment that's a barrier. You know, it's preventing it. Now, over time, it could just be a challenge that, you know, I've got to save more money or have a bigger down payment to afford this house. You know, and so it's it's some of this is the the negotiable time or the resources that you have to overcome it. So with a barrier, you know, you can either pivot, bypass, or accept the barrier. If you smash your head against the brick wall, I mean, you're you're not gonna you're still not gonna get the outcome or the result that you're looking for. Versus the challenge is something about endurance. How do you problem solve and conquer the challenge? And you essentially climb the mountain to build strength, endurance, quality, capacity, whatever you might want to call it. And so the question is then, what does this look like? So just since we're kind of hashing this out, Jonathan, anything that stands out for you about a specific barrier or challenge that you feel like you've addressed?

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Um, yeah, yeah. No, no, I completely agree with you. I I kind of view it as right, barriers are these real kind of concrete things in in life, you know, and and then the challenge, I almost view it as sort of like a self-imposed internal kind of mental thing, right? And and so yeah, you you've got to you've got to kind of change your way of thinking um uh to kind of overcome those. And and I think I I probably suffer more from the challenges maybe than the barriers. I think, you know, we we talked about this, about that identity is as opposed to saying, you know, I am that person that that works out, I am that person that that that can build a business or or or whatnot. You know, I I think I fall victim to to those challenges of maybe negative self-talk and and not doing some positive manifestation of things. Um and and and I think I think we've talked about it in in prior episodes uh uh within this orchard health journey, you know, and and and there's been different different probably mental challenges more so than than than true barriers when it comes to growth or um you know ceilings to where to where we are. So um, you know, I I I think maybe that mental setback from when the Valdassa office, you know, did didn't work, and I kind of crawled in my shell and and had some self-pity for you know six weeks, and and I think everything kind of went stagnant. Right. You know, because I was I was mentally afraid to make a move, to try to grow, to try to do something. Um and and now you you know I I feel like I've overcome that barrier and and I'm I'm gonna figure out a way to do that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

And and so I even think like in the the growing the DPC that that you can look at it as a barrier or a challenge, and it depends on your perspective on what the problem actually is. So like you could say that the barrier is that more people don't accept DPC because um employers don't include DPC as an option in their benefits package, you know, that's a barrier, you're not gonna change that, you know. But the challenge could be um educating employers about DPC, you know, to where you're influencing them to consider including that as part of their benefits package. Because most people who are already paying a premium for their health insurance aren't gonna pay now more money for DPC care. And they're like, Well, that's stupid. Why am I doing that? You know, and then some people get the idea of the quality of it and the the accessibility of it and everything else. And so, but they've already done the work of educating themselves, and so they've confronted the challenge, but getting that big market level buy-in is the real challenge of DPC to get people to trust in something that is new or different, right? Um, you know, it's just like I remember going from uh dial-up to to broadband and stuff like that. Like I remember they all brand and you're like, hold on, so we don't go through the phone for what for internet now? Like that's that's change, you know, and for a lot of people, change is is scary, and I definitely understand that. Um, so so this idea of the barrier being the immovable wall, you know, where people make the mistake instead of recognizing this is not something I'm gonna change. Um, so for example, um working with the Navy and things like that, there's a lot of policies that you know I don't personally agree with and how that they they you know provide care and different things like that. What's the likelihood that I'm gonna change that? Slim to none. Slim to none. It's very rare that an individual is going to, you know, overcome a barrier of organizational change and stuff like that. And so it's something that you have to have a sense of radical acceptance of if I want to work here, I have to deal with these standards or these procedures or something like that. And that acceptance doesn't mean that you condone it. It doesn't mean you agree with it. It just means this is my job and this is what I have to do, this is what's expected. Um, if it was a challenge where someone would say, hey, we're looking to make a change, you know, do you have input? Well, then the challenge would be writing a new SOP.

unknown 9:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

But until they want my feedback on that, that's probably not gonna happen, you know. Um, and so it's it's recognizing that it's not something that's gonna be changed and stop trying to bash your head against that and stop fighting that. I'm not good at that because I am a therapist and I'm idealistic and I have an ethical code to abide by. And I get very frustrated whenever I feel like people are not, you know, putting the patient first or the patient care first in that access.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Well, and and I think for a lot of our listeners too, yeah, that that barrier could be that that that frustrating uh component of working for somebody else and and and having to do the job the way they want it done, um, and not being able to make any sort of of change in that environment. But then that challenge becomes well, how do I how do I become my own boss? How do I start a business? How do I become an entrepreneur, you know, so that I can make the rules and I I can do things that I want. And again, I think it's it's negative self-talk. I I don't know how to start a business, I don't, I'm not good with money, all that sort of thing. Um, so yeah, I I think there are definitely ways to to combat those challenges, uh, both within keeping with your W-2 or maybe going out on your own and and being self-employed.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Right. And the idea of whenever you're trying to um overcome a true barrier, you know, it goes back to the idea of being the ghost at the dinner table that you're with your family, but your brain is still trying to solve an unsolvable problem. Um people even go into like a victim mentality, you know, that they say, well, that's just the way that the things are. I guess that's just the way it's gonna be. Well, now that means that you're you have accepted that you're not gonna accomplish your potential. Instead of, you know, finding a challenge maybe that can be a workaround to that barrier, it's not gonna change it. It's a way to bypass it or a way to um either accept it or get around it or something like that. Um, and so being having a passive approach to something you view as a barrier is gonna lead to that collective laziness, you know, where you just stop trying to do anything to make progress. Right. So there's uh, you know, we've talked before about the idea of the law of diminishing returns. If you have already, you know, tried to work harder, you've tried to strategize, you've tried to add additional resources. If you have not moved the needle even by 1%, I'm gonna say that's a barrier. Sure. Because a barrier is not something that you can buckle down with good old American elbow grease and work ethic and make it change. It's not something that that you can do anything with. And part of that is goes back to the locus of control that we've talked about before, that there's a lot of things like anything about my choice is something I control. Anything not pertaining to my choice is out of my control, and the most that I can hope to have is influence. But that goes back to what we just said. If I have worked hard to apply that influence and it does not move the needle, it's simply a barrier. We've got to look at a different way of solving the problem.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, because it is a it is a real structural component or or yeah, barrier in life, not just a a mental shift that you've you've got to make internally uh to make that change. And I think those are certainly more uh probably more complicated uh to to fix because you've got to find resources and relationships and and and potentially a whole new strategy outside of of what you've been doing to get you to that point to to get around or get over that barrier, um, you know, uh versus the the the challenge, I think is something that with introspection, um uh, you know, uh listening to podcasts, doing some education, you you can figure out a way to to to change uh your habits, change your mind uh to where you can get to the gym in the morning and not have that extra coffee or or other sort of things like that, that that you you can create those things without having to kind of rearrange all of life.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

And like the the barrier for for me, I would say, is that traditional um traditional therapy is done you know through insurance or self-pay and different things like that. Me personally, I don't want to work for an insurance company. And if they're the ones that you're being paid by, then you work for the insurance company. And I don't like how insurance companies, they control policy, they control treatment standards, they control what they consider to be effective interventions and otherwise, which means the therapist is no longer the one who gets to choose what the proper modality is for the client. They want to see a diagnosis, they want to see an empirically supported intervention and everything else. So the pivot for me was always trying to find a job where I was working for a salary. It was not pay by visit or anything like that. Because I me personally, I don't agree with that. I'm also not going to change that. I just don't like how the pay per visit thing turns um turns the patient into a paycheck. And so a lot of private practice uh clinicians that I've worked with, you know, that maybe the person's resolved and they have made the progress that they wanted. Oh, but I still you still need to come at least three or four more times. That's not for the client anymore. Right. And so, you know, I I wanted to pivot and get out of that instead of trying to beat my head against that barrier, is find a way to not fight it at all.

unknown 14:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

And and so, you know, I don't was there any kind of a strategic pivot or anything like that that you had to do either mentally or or um business-wise, you know, after the Valdasta office that you felt like was a conscious thing that you had to do?

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Well, I and I think it it kind of uh piggybacks off of what you just said, it's it's doing things for people versus two people. And I had I think I had to kind of regroup and go, well, damn, man, like you've you've done a lot for Nashville and that community and and the and the the patients that you've got at Orchard Health now, like you you you can't let that suffer because you're sitting here uh wallering in your own sorrow over a venture that didn't work when you have so many things to be thankful for and and a patient panel that you can do, you have done and and and continue to do so much for them. You know, so so I I think that was sort of what what helped me kind of pick myself up and go, you know, let's let's be appreciative of of what we've got. And that point, I think it was, you know, we've been four or five years that we'd we'd started this business and and and to look backwards and go, man, we've come a long way. There's no reason to kind of give up on this or or shove this to the side because a venture didn't didn't work out. Um and again, using it as a lesson to learn from for future versus seeing it as that that loss um that can just kind of demoralize you.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Well, and I think the pivot how that plays into the radical acceptance is you know, like the idea of contentment. Contentment, a lot of people they mislabel it or or they define it incorrectly because contentment is not having enough. It's believing that what you have is enough. You know, and so the pivot, instead of like you beating your head against the wall saying, we're gonna make this work, we're gonna have a practice here and it's gonna succeed and everything else, at some point you've got to pivot and say, you know what? Maybe the pivot is I'm choosing to believe that what we've already done and done well, that that's enough for now. You know, that doesn't mean that it couldn't succeed in the future or something like that. But I mean, it there any kind of a market change is about timing and it's about the economy and all this other stuff. And there's nothing wrong with saying, hey, this was a good move at the wrong time or something like that. That's still a pivot because you're willing to accept that. And instead of seeing it as a failure, it's a learning opportunity. And so some of those pivots are just the the perspective that we apply to the circumstances. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Well, and and I think when you, yeah, when when you see the the the pivot or even the the barrier as part of the journey, right? I mean, I I'm I'm sure there's not an entrepreneur out there or someone that's that's running a business or or has done that in the past, that it's all been smooth sailing. I would I would venture to say with with all the ones that I've talked to at Orchard Health and in other communities, that that it's always harder than they thought it was gonna be. And that was because it required flexibility, pivots, overcoming barriers. And I think when you accept that as part of that journey, and and and like we've talked about before, falling in love with that part of it, you know, not not feeling like you're getting drugged through the mud, but but having fun on that warrior race, you know, uh, then then you view them as learning abilities and and ways that you will become better, your business will become better. Um, and I think that carries through all aspects of life.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

And with any challenge, it it's like you know, a sprint versus a marathon or something like that. Um, you've got to kind of deconstruct the pathway to success. So um in the past, you know, I've done a lot of running. I've not done a lot of running recently, but I remember that when I'd be running, I would just like kind of fixate on a point in the in the distance and just say, okay, I've got to make it to that. And then you you get to that point, you check in with yourself and be like, okay, well, let me find a new point. Can I make it to that? You know, and so instead of thinking I have to run 13 miles or however the distance is, I'm just trying to make it to this next point. And it's funny because they use that perspective in um AA treatment and Alcoholics Anonymous. They they they call it the just for today mentality. Um, that somebody who's had a history of alcohol abuse, it may feel daunting to feel like I've got to be sober and can't ever drink for the rest of my life. Um, that feels like a barrier, right? It feels like something they're gonna fail at. And so instead, they say, well, can you just choose to be sober for today? You know, and then when you wake up tomorrow, can you ask yourself, can I do this for today? And so instead of having that, you know, 100-yard stare or whatever they call that, you know, that that you're focused on the next right thing. You know, what's the next right thing or the next right step in this? And what's funny is one of your best weapons during a challenge is rest. Yeah. And and it doesn't feel it feels counterintuitive because you're like, hold on, if I'm not making progress, then how am I getting further along? Because a a crippled person or a tired person is not an effective person. Sure. And so being able to recognize this as a long-term challenge or a long burn, ha ha kind of that's you know, that's that means that rest is an absolute necessity in that progress. Um, and so so it's not a it's not a sprint, it's not something you can accomplish in one day. You know, if you open the practice and we're mad that you didn't have a thousand people beating down your door on day one, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Sure. If if I had started, you know, if I had known that it would take so long to be a therapist and didn't find ways to to pace that on myself, I wouldn't be here either having having this conversation and finding ways to help people out. Yeah. Well, and I think it's like that rest is a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, no, and I think you're exactly right there. You know, I uh talking to other folks and and and other practices in the DPC world that we've helped get started or given advice to and and all of them are like, yeah, I want to start, you know, day one with 500 patients. I'm like, no, you don't. You know, you want to start with one, maybe five at the most, so you can learn how to so you can become that person who can manage the five, who can then manage the 10, who can work up to that and and not just kind of uh do it all at once. Um and then when it comes to the rest component, I just I just finished uh 10x is easier than 2x by uh uh uh Dr. Hardy and Benjamin Hardy and and Dan Sullivan. And and one of the things they talk about there is uh at the beginning of every year, uh Dan Sullivan uh he sets aside like a half the year, 180 days of rest days so that he can recuperate because he cannot go full bore into his business adventures and and and his coaching stuff uh because it just takes it out of you. Right. You know, so so uh you've got these guys at the top tier of business, at the top tier of of coaching and success and entrepreneurship that are telling you, look, you've you've got to build this in from the get-go. And and when I heard that, I was sitting there going, just like you said, I I can't take time off. I can't I can't have half the year as rest days, I'll fall behind or I won't make any progress. But but it really uh when when you when you fully immerse yourself in rest, that allows you to to recuperate and fully immerse yourself in work on the work days. So yeah, I I think it's often uh uh unutilized.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Some of the sailors I work with, you know, they'll tell me that they they've accrued a lot of uh annual leave and they're like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna use it or lose it. And I'm like, Well then you're wrong. And They kind of look at me shocked, whatever. I'm like, that's your benefit. You know, that is your ability to provide for your family, you know, the best parts of you. That's your ability to recoup, to be more focused on the job. And so that to me is the number one indication a lot of times of poor self-care is when people are not using the benefit of their time off because they're so afraid to rest or lose momentum that they just won't do it. And so they're just, they're just kicking the can down the road. They're just, you know, doing the best that they can and struggling through. And it's absolutely not necessary. You know, if if your success depends on you giving 100% every day, then it's absolute plan for failure.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Well, and I I think I think let's think back to to the two guests we've had so far with the firing line questions with with Rod and Tim. You know, one of the things they had to unlearn was was the go, go, go, was, was saying no. And and one of the things that they appreciate now in their journey is is that there is time to rest and reflect and and be intentional with their use of time, whether that's at work or with family. You know, so I I think it's super important that that we balance all that and and learn that that is part of this this journey as well.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

So I've got a couple stories that talk about barriers and challenges of kind of examples. Um so this is this will be a new segment. This is storytime with Uncle Joel. Storytime with Uncle Uncle Jones, Uncle Jones. That's right. It's Uncle Jones.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

I forgot about that. No one's gonna appreciate that. That was so it was uh this was years ago.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Yeah, that was something out with Jonathan and his uh youngest Sumter. Um, they said, Oh, this is Uncle Joel. And so he, I don't know, he didn't hear it right, couldn't say right, whatever. And so he kept calling me Uncle Jones, and I've I just forgot about that. So yeah, we'll call it storytime with Uncle Jones. So um, this is a story about the origins of Instagram. So Instagram wildly successful, uh social media and stuff like that. But the two people who created it were Kevin Sistrom and Mike Krieger, and so uh it was not originally um about pictures. Any idea what their initial app was called and what it was for, Jonathan? Not a not X, I have no clue. Not X. That's that's Elon. Elon button. I got no clue. So yeah, Instagram wasn't was kind of a pivot, all right. And so these two guys, Kevin and Mike, they created this app and it was called Bourbon, B-U-R-B-N. And the whole point of the uh of the app was to do check-ins. You know, when you go to a restaurant or you go somewhere and you check in, yeah. That was the whole point of it. And what's funny is that the point of the app, a side feature of the app, was the fact that you could actually take pictures and show people where you're at and what you ate and all this other stuff. And so whenever they were just doing it as a check-in app, there was no traction. The app was was kind of clunky. And and I mean, most people don't really care that much about um being doing check-in, and there was other apps that were trying to do it at the same time. So there was this brick wall that that basically the consumers or social media goers, whatever you want to call it, they didn't want a complicated check-in app. You know, they wanted something where they could just share their experience. And so instead of them like forcing of like, no, we've got to get people to to accept this check-in app and this culture and stuff like that, they started to look at the data. And what they realized is that people were ignoring the check-in feature completely, but they were they were obsessed of posting pictures and sharing that with other people. And so then they had they started building that feature out by adding photo filters and you know, sharing additional photos instead of just one. You could share multiple. And so instead of just burning the whole thing down, they didn't throw away the app, they just did the the 90-degree pivot that we talked about. They stripped everything else out of the app and um focused on the photo sharing feature that that's what everybody who was using the app really wanted. Sure. And so um obviously today it's still you know, millions and millions of people on on Instagram, and now you know they've got the functionality built in with Facebook, so it's grown even more with that um the backfeeding of the systems and everything else. I think Facebook bought out Instagram. I think isn't it called meta owner now? Uh I don't know. Meta that stuff doesn't take off, but but I think that they might be part. I don't know. I didn't I didn't do my research on that part, but the fact that they share back and forth, I would assume that somebody owns both of them. Somebody, right? Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so that's that's the story of Instagram. All right, so what do you know about James Dyson? He made a whole bunch of vacuums before he got to that one eight.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

He sucks, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Yes. Okay, so yes, James Dyson is exactly who you think he is. He is the founder of Dyson Vacuums, and so um I didn't realize this, but he started back in the 70s that that he started trying to figure out how to fix the vacuum. And so the problem that he identified was that vacuums started losing their suckable, suckability or whatever you want to call it, their vacuum. They kept they kept losing suction. It's because that back then all the all of the the vacuums on the market, um, they used bags, and those bags would clog with dust. And and so he had had tried and tried to create a vacuum that was bagless using his cyclonic separation, and he was the first one to invent that. And now most vacuums nowadays have some sort of cyclonic separation. I mean, it's probably a lot harder to find a vacuum with a bag like it was back then. So this wasn't a barrier, this was a challenge. Like he had to figure out how, as an engineer, how do I solve this problem? How do I create a vacuum that does not yield, uh, does not use a bag that maintains suction even whenever it's full and all this other stuff. And so that's when he started finding ways to create the cyclonic separation. So it took him 15 years to come up with a patented uh design and prototype that worked. And how many failed prototypes do you think he had? Just throw a number out there. 105. 5,126 failed prototypes. I was almost there. I wouldn't have made it past 100. No, there's no way. 5,126 failed prototypes. And so the the guy went into debt and his his wife was a teacher. And so imagine if he'd have stopped short. Like he would have just amassed all this crazy debt. Yeah, you know, probably be divorced by then if he kept trying to go for it and his wife was supporting him. And so it wasn't until 5,127 times that he finally created the design that worked. And so this was a challenge. This is something that he had to figure it out, he had to solve the problem, he had to figure out what the physics was was saying and how to create that into a small uh compartment. And it's just like um with Thomas Edison, um, I I don't even remember what his fail rate was or something like that. And uh he was he his he was famously quoted for saying, you know, I I didn't fail to make a light bulb, you know, a hundred times. He said, I just figured out 99 ways not to make a light bulb, you know? And like to have that kind of radical perspective like that, like that is so difficult when it feels like you're facing failure after failure after failure.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Well, you know, I I mean I I think this touches on so many good points and that that you can't lose if you don't quit. And and clearly if you're going at something 5,000 times, you're not qu you know, you know, you're not quitting. So you're you're gonna succeed. But then also that's part of the journey, right? I mean, I think they accepted these these failures, the these learning lessons um as as part of this journey versus these roadblocks or or or or you know uh whatever concrete you know uh impediments that that that stopped stopped them from getting where they wanted to go. They just learned. They learned and iterated and and and both were wildly successful with with their ideas, their whys, and um, you know, uh getting to that product that they were trying to create. Right. Well well cheat to win, that's my motto.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

There we go. Perfect. Yeah, yeah, just game the system. But no, but so you know the the idea is like if you think about it, it's it's wisdom to stop trying to change a barrier. It's wisdom to say, like, this is not something I'm gonna change and to stop beating your head against it. Um, but it's character to navigate a challenge, you know. Of it's a lot of character to say so committed to something that you absolutely refuse to give up until you see uh see the plan come to fruition. Um and and I I do believe that there are times that we see something as a barrier that is simply a challenge. It's a time problem. You know, it's just it's the wrong time, or we want our success too quickly, or something like that. And so the the knowing the wisdom of when do I need to stop beating my head against the wall or when do I need to build the character to make it through the long haul or something like that? Um, that's really hard. And so I mentioned, you know, in our last uh our last conversation with Rod, whenever he was on, you know, that sometimes my wife is a good mirror of saying, like, hey, are you sure this is like my chaplain would say in the army, he says, Is this the hill you want to die on? You know, is this the thing that you're like, I'm staunchly gonna do this thing and I don't care what anybody thinks, you know, and she'll remind me sometimes, she's like, Hey, maybe we don't need to do this, maybe this isn't the right way to do it. And um going back to the idea of rest, we think more clearly whenever we're rested. And the part part of it is like if you can think about the emotionality of when you're trying to overcome a challenge and you're frustrated, and most of your actions are based on emotion. And and so while the emotional brain is being supercharged with your blood flow, the logical brain, the problem-solving part is vacant, it's out to pasture. And so, what rest does is it restores that balance in the emotional brain and the logical brain, where all of a sudden the solution seems a lot more clear. And so you can keep beating your head against the wall, you know, if you want to, that's not gonna help your brain at one bit. You know, it you've got to find a way to re-engage with the logical, rested aspect instead of pushing through with sheer willpower and emotion, because that's all it is.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Yeah. Well, and I I think that that goes back to what you're saying. It's the differences in barriers and challenges. And so when you when you hit a stagnant part of the journey or or whatnot, I think then it's being able to step back and diagnose is this a barrier, is this a challenge? Because, like you said, the the the way to overcome them is completely different. And so, you know, if you bring a knife to a gunfight, you're not gonna do very well.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Well, and a dumb analogy I heard a long time ago is um let's say, let's say you've got 10 patients in the lobby, okay? And if I say, Hey Jonathan, we're gonna play tug of war, you know, and then I hand you a rope, like, are you gonna pick the rope up? What are you gonna do? Like, what are the chances you're gonna win against 10 people? I mean, you've been doing whack-a-mole, you know, so you're working out. It's one time, it's one time. You know, and so there's no way that you can commit to that action without feeling like you're failing. And so the goal is not to pick up the rope and embarrass yourself, you just drop the rope, right? You know, and that's the same idea as the barrier of like, hey, I'm I'm choosing, I'm making a decision not to fight this anymore. I'm letting this rope go. I'm not gonna continue to humiliate or embarrass myself or put myself in financial hardship over something that I finally have come to recognize that I don't control. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So drop the rope. Drop the rope. Drop the rope, drop the mic, boom, mic drop.

unknown 33:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

I feel like I was really passionate about this one today. I don't, I'm not really sure why, but uh I feel like that one kind of uh I feel like it went quickly, even though we're already over 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

I know I was shocked too looking at the time. No, I I think but that I think that's good because again, we've we've kind of gone on this journey as we talk about the journey, and and and yeah, I think the practical applications, I think hearing about Dyson, you know, hearing about Instagram, you know, these were these were turning points where these guys could have given up and and and we wouldn't have a world with them in it. And and to think about the impact that they have had and and will continue to have is is is tremendous. And so, you know, right there we're at that 90%. And I'm sure they were at that time at that 90%. And and they could have self-sabotaged, they could have you know turned around and and taken their ball and gone home, but they they decided to figure out, diagnose the type of of problem they were facing and and learn and and get the best of it. I usually tell people I'm gonna take my balls and go home, and they always look really confused. Yeah, it's because you don't know anything about sports, Joel.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

I don't know anything about sports. Who knows what kind of balls I'm talking about? That's right. Oh uh anyway. Well, I th I think we've done it, I think we did all right addressing some of that. Um so yeah, you always look for the difference. If you feel like you're confused whether it's a barrier or a challenge, ask someone else because more than likely they've got more clarity than you do if you're trying to emotionally solve an issue on your own. Sure. Um so yeah, that's it. I feel like it we went really hard and then abruptly ended. So yeah, uh, sorry about that. Yeah, yeah. Think about that. Chew on that for a little while. Yeah, everybody. Give them something to think about. Yeah, I guess so. All right, anything else from you, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Oh, all these episodes are different. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

They're all different. We're it's because we're different every day. That's right. That's perfect.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

We're taking my balls and going home. Yeah, there we go. No, no, I I think I think this is good. And and as we always say, you know, we appreciate everybody that that that tunes in, listens to the podcast. Um, if if anybody's got you know any ideas for things we can do different topics we can talk about, things that are bothering bothering them in life other than us or their entrepreneurial journey, um, you know, shoot us a message, send us an email, reach out. Um, we we'd love to talk about things. Also, if if if you or someone you love or know would like to be a guest on here, we're always looking for new guests and people that have got a great creative, wonderful story uh uh within life, leadership, and all the fun things that that maybe are uh romanticized or or or made into Hollywood, as Rod said last week, um, to where it's really the the mud and the muck. And if we are bothering you, you're welcome. We're do we're doing our job.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

We're doing what we're supposed to do. We're talking about uncomfortable things. Yeah. That's right. I'm so uncomfortable. That's probably the hemorrhoids though.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

It's you okay anyways. All right, well, everybody have a wonderful week. Jonathan and Joel signing off.